2002-05-25T23:24-0700 Evenly matched, this battle is.
So we all went to Baycon SF convention as part of my early conditioning prior to visiting WorldCon in September. I suffered only minor culture shock (primarily over the Sailor Moon ladies and a women dressed in slightly less than a sheet).
Then we went to watch Brad Templeton, chair of the EFF, get called a "motherfucker" by Harlon Ellison in a debate about copyright issues. Admittedly, Harlon's primary critique of Brad at that point was that he was "looking at [Harlon] funny". But he didn't have much good to say about the Net either.
I channelled the whole thing to the scofflaws on "an Internet" (as Harlon called it in passing) via the #infoanarchy IRC channel. For those who like garbled transliterations, here's the log.
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat May 25 20:08:01 2002 wmf hey malaclyps malaclyps i'm sitting watching Cory Doctorow and Brad Templeton duke it out with Harlon Ellison at Baycon! wmf awesome * malaclyps plays "Horns of Shatner" trek fight music shankar has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) wmf Ellison needs a load of clue dropped on him malaclyps i'll be your SMACKDOWN commentator for the next 30 fist-filled minutes! shankar (~email@example.comBB.com) has joined #infoanarchy kherr Cool, Ellison is awesome. kherr He's outdated in his thinking of copyright, but. dnm malaclyps: Over what? jkl hey dnm :) malaclyps over DMCA and "Son of DMCA" --- weirdly, Harlon's dead against the DMCA ... wmf doesn't he use it against ISPs? malaclyps because he says that it stops him suing AOL for allowing his text to appear on their newsgroups wmf ah AccordionGuySend in the ARMY OF THE REPUBLIC malaclyps Wait - Harlon's revealed his Sith Master - AIiiiieee Loki Zerotheos "I pulled over a thousand feet of cat5 cable scraps out of my school's dumpster recently. A crimper and a few Loki handfuls of rj-45 plugs later, my apartment is a neon-blue rat's nest of network love. I have a cable going from Loki my fridge to my coffee maker just because I can!" malaclyps and Cory plays the "Brewster Kahle" trump card malaclyps Harlon mutters that Brewster Kahle is "arrogant", pots and kettles walking out in protest malaclyps it's a packed crowd tonight: lots of slightly overloud laughing and mullets in the audience kherr Where are you watching this? quinnums (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #infoanarchy AccordionGuyIs cory bouncing around like Yoda? wmf aw, what a cute nick AccordionGuyIs Cory delivering pimp-slaps from a distance using The Force? kherr Crap, forgot to summon pizza. malaclyps Cory is doing the looking broody, pre-bitchslap preparatory yoda phase kherr Harlan Ellison isn't someone to mess with. I saw him verbally flay someone at a lecture once, because the hapless fool made a crack about Ellison's height. AccordionGuyEvenly matched, this battle is. malaclyps Harlon taking out the EFF, is. -- he's asking the EFF to get down that pirate that he and Jerry Pournelle are trying to hunt down kherr What's Pournelle up to these days? Does he still pretend to be a technology pundit? --- tvoj_gone is now known as tvoj malaclyps www.jerrypournelle.com malaclyps Harlon says that the EFF is the "police" wmf no, the Police put out much better music malaclyps Cory points out that they're a "free speech" organisation kherr Augh, the Chaos Manor lives. quinnums i'm just logging in to find out what's going on in this conference malaclyps Harlon is accusing the *EFF* of "shooting off their mouths". Pot and kettle form legal copyright action against him. quinnums <antinews> wow this harlan guy is looney as a koot</antinews> Loki anyone got a url to this ellison thing? malaclyps brrr-proot fruit the crazyman said malaclyps Harlon sez: make citizen arrests of copyright pirates quinnums harlon stuff here Loki ugh Loki that url is WAY ugly. malaclyps google cache * tvoj thinks he came back home just in time kherr Sigh. He's such a good writer, but he's so wrong about this. quinnums its the eff's fault that people violate copyright, cause they could stop it, cause they are smarter than him about electronics wmf lol! tvoj heh ellison mentions me in his statment: tvoj "...WHEN LITTLE INTERNET THIEVES, RODENTS WITHOUT ETHIC OR UNDERSTANDING, STEA..." malaclyps tvoj: oh, *you're* that russian pirate, huh quinnums brad blamed him for a child's death in africa, but harlan got out of it tvoj no, I am The Vole of Justice quinnums he said that no, he adopted umbawe and he's doing very well now silentfury I'd tell that guy he should be put in a mental institution silentfury putting people in jail over copyright vs violent crimes? silentfury "Mr. Ellison, do you think that rapists should get less time in jail than people who violate copyright?" tvoj that is a rather looney rant quinnums oh, it's so far before even that tvoj for one thing, he's screaming in ALL CAPS. he belongs on AOL. silentfury the trick is to show how much of a lunatic he really is quinnums i wanna know how much money harland thinks he's lost to copyright violation quinnums that not a trick dnm malaclyps: Where is this? What is this? quinnums it's not even worthwhile to do anymore silentfury "Mr. Ellison, do you believe that murderers should get less time in jail than copyright violators? wmf malaclyps i'm sitting watching Cory Doctorow and Brad Templeton duke it out wmf with Harlon Ellison at Baycon! tvoj what's happening now malaclyps? dnm I am not hip with the Baycon. WTF is it? quinnums everyone knows what an idiot/asshole ellison is wmf I'm guessing it's a sci-fi convention dnm He writes decent stories. quinnums yes, he does malaclyps kinda dull questions from the audience tvoj yeah it's a big annual scifi convention stevej has quit ("gotta run. bbl") dnm malaclyps: Who is left on the panel or whatever to answer questions? silentfury yea but you need to keep emphasizing how looney he is malaclyps someone made good answer to Harlon who says that techies should hunt down copyright infringers - pointed out that quinnums and has a hard time getting them published cause he's alienated half the publishing industry silentfury otherwise ppl forget. malaclyps they've been trying to hunt down spammers, unsuccessfully dnm quinnums: Funny, that. kherr Ellison is actually pretty cool. Remember that he was effectively banned by Spiro Agnew. malaclyps dnm: panel is = harlon, brad templeton chair of eff, laura majerus who is a IP lawyer, cory silentfury I've spoken with Brad before silentfury very cool guy. dnm What I want to know is 1) Where's Ray Bradbury to call the Internet a pinball machine when we need him, and 2) "Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear"? kherr He's just really wrong about copyright. malaclyps and an academic moderator (who seems weirdly biased toward the harlon viewpoint) dnm malaclyps: Has Cory (or anyone else) talked about ebooks yet? silentfury just get harlon to say that rapists should get less time in jail than copyright violators quinnums he's also a genuinely mean person a lot of the time, and another notorious sci-fi misogenist malaclyps Lara already said that it's weird that there's no *anti*copyright people on stage silentfury now that would be icing on the cake. malaclyps dnm: not yet dnm Is anyone really anti-copyright? I'm not, I don't think. malaclyps quinnums is quinnums there aren't many of us anti-copyright people out there dnm malaclyps: Can you perhaps proxy ask a question for me? malaclyps dnm: sure devzero (~email@example.com) has joined #infoanarchy wmf Ian Clarke is anti-copyright malaclyps John Perry Barlow is anti-copyright. I ... waver kherr I am, I know of at least one other who is. malaclyps harlon is sitting quiet, looking like he's surrounded by idiot humans. again. silentfury malaclyps: ask ellison if rapists should be given less time in jail than copyright violators. dnm malaclyps: This is pretty general, but I'm curious to know what everyone thinks of eBooks as applies to copyright, but in the context of, if I write an eBook and claim copyright, where do I stand today. Or, for hillarious effect, alter the question to rile people up. malaclyps dnm: not sure i understand your question quinnums he has a dent in his forehead from where he holds his head in frustration all the time dnm malaclyps: I'm out of the loop on what would be the most incindiary eBook related question to ask. dnm malaclyps: Well, I'm curious to know what each of the panel thinks about eBooks, but I want to stir the shit. dnm malaclyps: And just asking "what about eBooks" is too general. silentfury also, ask ellison what he thinks of a microchip implanted in each human being that would kill them if they violated copyright. silentfury if he was for that, that would be hilarious. dnm malaclyps: I'll try to think of something more apropos. malaclyps silentfury: have you read Noir by K. W. Jeter? Now there's a guy who actually thinks people should be killed for copyright infringement quinnums i think even harlan might notice that kind of baiting dnm quinnums: What's your elevator pitch about anti-copyright? silentfury malaclyps: seriously? silentfury I didn't think anyone was that bad quinnums i don't have an elevator pitch, but i suppose i should malaclyps silentfury: seriously. * silentfury labels K.W. Jeter as a threat to the human race. silentfury hey Dubya! go get em! malaclyps i think the feeling may be mutual, unfortunately :( malaclyps good author though malaclyps god this moderator is annoying quinnums how about: in an age of ubitqutous access to info, copyright becomes a repressive regine to keep information out of the hands of the people who need it most, for instance minorities and the third world populations dnm malaclyps: Ooh. How long does each member of the panel who writes material covered under copyright and who earns money from such expect to make a living off of his or her copyright in say, ten years. malaclyps Harlon: an "audience of scofflaws" malaclyps Harlon to Brad: "do not pull funny faces, motherfucker, when I'm talking" dnm malaclyps: I'd retort with "we keep you in bread and circuses" silentfury he called him a motherfucker? malaclyps yup silentfury not smart. quinnums fuuuuuck [ Aahz Manuch saw this incident a little differently - dob, 2002-06-24 ] silentfury what i wouldn't do for force-grip sometimes. dnm malaclyps: If I had money, I'd pay you a vast sum to rush the stage and either pie or punch Ellison the fuck out right now. dnm malaclyps: What questions is the audience asking? malaclyps harlon: "I have never taken anything out of an internet" silentfury how can people take this guy seriously malaclyps harlon *really* winning over the audience now dnm quinnums: Hrm. I'd say that's only excessive copyright enforcement. I see copyright as legal credit where credit is due, and a defense against having people purloin one's work. quinnums ah quinnums i don't believe in the author's right to credit quinnums but like i siad dnm malaclyps: Really? What is he speaking to that the audience agrees with so much? malaclyps i wish i was taping this quinnums i don't have an elevator pitch malaclyps dnm: no, being sarcastic. he just accused them all of being scofflaws dnm quinnums: Agreed to a point, which is why I was somewhat ambivalent about putting myself firmly on either side of the fence. dnm malaclyps: And they liked that? I guess I'd have to be there to understand. dnm malaclyps: Oh wait. Duh. Never mind, I'm dumb. malaclyps dnm: no, i was just joking. at that point the audience was shouting at harlon * dnm nods silentfury this Ellison guy needs to be drawn and quartered. dnm quinnums: I think, more basically, that a culture of credit is pretty piss-poor. dnm quinnums: But I haven't done enough serious thinking and debate to shore up my position and outlook. * tvoj thinks we will all be happier if we just chip in for halan's medication and be done with t tvoj it silentfury the only rights i think an author should have is recognition for their work.. or moral rights. * dnm tries to think of a half-decent question silentfury hm malaclyps dnm: if i can, i'll ask the question about making money in ten years time silentfury do you think Ellison would know about Noir by Jeter? malaclyps not sure dnm malaclyps: Cool, thanks. dnm You NTK people go to all the cool shows. ;] silentfury "What do you think of KW. Jeter's views on violating copyright in "Noir" ? silentfury if he doesn't know and agree, boom dnm How old is Ellison now? I forget. I last saw him on what I think was the last Late Late Show with Tom Snyder years back. malaclyps dnm: he's about 68 malaclyps he was really young when he started silentfury hrm. so how's his heart? dnm I think that still makes him junior to Bradbury, who is like 80 now, IIRC. silentfury maybe we could induce a heart attack by getting him riled up. Loki Hard to get him riled up, I'd imagine. dnm How old is Delaney? I wish he was there. He'd probably have somethign more intelligent to say. silentfury "death by copyright" malaclyps harlon is claiming that he can hack down any user dnm ? silentfury hack down any user? or track dnm H4r10n 311i50n malaclyps hack into their computers and shut down pirates quinnums dnm: i'm thought about it a lot about it, but not enough to encapsulate it in a short speech silentfury heh dnm quinnums: Sounds like a conversation best had over good beer. silentfury doesn't he know it's a life sentence in jail for hacking ? :) malaclyps a question from a librarian (she said she was a librarian and got an *instant* round of applause) silentfury librarian's rock malaclyps silentfury: ISP guy in the audience promised to "take him down if he does that to my customers" quinnums it's just something i've got to write up and put on the net. with no name on it :) malaclyps librarian asks about doctrine of fair sale, and how that works in the digital world wmf that reminds me... I noticed that whywork has no name on it silentfury malaclyps: ask him if he's aware of the laws regarding hacking in the USA Patriot Act dnm silentfury: That gets off topic quickly. quinnums why work needs more love quinnums there isn't anyone behind it anymore silentfury not if he said he could hack any user dnm I'm still curious about what such an ensemble of _speculative thinkers_ who make money by the good graces of profitable copyright plan to do to continue to eat in a decade. malaclyps dnm: will ask now dnm malaclyps: You rock. silentfury you know what would be funny dnm I hope Ellison gets into a tiff. I'd have for him to reply with something lame and off the cuff. silentfury doesn't Turkey have really really really strict computer laws silentfury like hacking is death quinnums they almost called security on him ealier... it was wild... dnm silentfury: I think Turkey has really really strict everything laws. dnm quinnums: You there as well? silentfury be funny if ellison "hacked" someone in turkey silentfury and they extradited him. quinnums yes quinnums next to mala dnm quinnums: Sweet. dnm quinnums: Sad to have missed meeting you folks at ETCON. Cory's talked about you and I was looking forward to it. * silentfury thinks the strategy should be to induce a heart attack by riling him up. quinnums harlan is useful silentfury now that would be poetic justice. silentfury useful? sounds like the idiot is useful at wasting space and resources silentfury nothing more. tvoj silentfury: would matter little, since a crotchety-old-coot vacuum would form and be filled instantly dnm You need a Devil's Advocate. malaclyps dnm: harlon says you've asked a stupid question dnm Preferrably a smart one too, like Ellison. quinnums harlan exists in a space that could be oppupied by someone far more dangerous malaclyps moderator has rewritten it dnm malaclyps: I would expect nothing less. dnm malaclyps: Oh? To what? dnm malaclyps: Moderator? malaclyps mderator says "What would life be like without copyright" dnm malaclyps: Lame! dnm malaclyps: That's not very bright. dnm malaclyps: And it's also not what I asked. *sigh* tvoj rather swift moderator there dnm malaclyps: Thanks for trying though, I do appreciate it. silentfury hm malaclyps harlon: pan and columbian univ did study of freelance writers - reavealed that 6000 authors create all of the published content dnm malaclyps: This reminds me of those question and answer sessions where the questions are all palateable and the answers all rhetoric. quinnums no, 90% quinnums he said 90% malaclyps ok silentfury how about "If you claim you can track down and hack any pirate, how come you haven't located Osama Bin Laden?" malaclyps harlon says, in summary, authors do not make much money quinnums and he said they earn 2600 a year, but i think he accidently left off a 0 silentfury duh, that's the publishers who rape them quinnums and every thinks they make a fortune Loki Harlan Ellison prolly has a decent fortune, and stephen king. Loki Most authors don't. malaclyps i don't understand why this helps his argument silentfury malaclyps: do you think that would be a good q regarding bin laden? dnm malaclyps: How do you go about asking questions? Is there some mediated interface people are typing them into for the moderator? malaclyps no, i raised my hand and asked tvoj i guess he doesn't express much confidence that other means of distributing creative works could result i a living wage malaclyps they liked it that the internet had a question to ask silentfury i would expect one of two responses silentfury "Who is osama bin laden" dnm malaclyps: Ah. And only Ellison had a non-response? dnm malaclyps: Indeed. The Internet has many questions. malaclyps dnm: harlon's kinda hijacked the answer silentfury malaclyps: how about "If you claim you can track down and hack any pirate, how come you haven't located Osama Bin Laden?" * dnm wonders if feedharlonellison.com is taken quinnums heheheheheh gooooood dnm malaclyps feedharlonellison to cyber pirates silentfury wipo would fuck u over tho tvoj heh silentfury :( silentfury malaclyps: is my question a little too out-there? :) malaclyps silentfury: i think i've blown my wad in the question asking capacity dnm malaclyps: The Internet would like to know what it has done to Harlon Ellison to invoke such unmititgated wrath beyond provide such services as amazon.com with which he continues to rake in the bucks. silentfury quinn? malaclyps dnm: he says he's not pissed off at the Internet dnm silentfury: I'd hate to ask an Osama bin Question at a scifi con. silentfury this is a sci-fi con? malaclyps harlon - "my outrage would be the same as if i was talking to someone living under a tyrant, saying they can't change anything, and making money out of the current situation" silentfury wtf is ellison doing there dnm malaclyps: Oh? Is this like child abuse then? He's not really hurting me, he loves me? malaclyps harlon: "you don't understand that there are *people* involved" dnm I understand he doesn't understand there are people involved, and you are but one. malaclyps silentfury: harlon ellison is "Special Guest" here malaclyps wooh it's getting hot in here malaclyps harlon promises this will be the last thing he will say dnm s/you are/he is/ silentfury dnm: my point by asking that type of question would be to show how much of an idiot he already is. :) dnm silentfury: Yeah, but you need to at least wage war on the same relevant turf. Comments like him hacking users are just meant as misdirection anyway. malaclyps harlon summary: most of the people who come to this con don't give a shit about science fiction malaclyps harlon: sf has become the feeding ground for many small fandoms, videogamers, wargamers silentfury people also come to sf cons to dream about a world of which he isn't a part of. dnm malaclyps: harlon doubletalk descrambled: "most of the people who came to this con don't give a shit about my science fiction, the only science fiction worth anything" dnm My opinion of Harlon Ellison has dropped like 92304572934574392349e39 percentage points in the last half hour. silentfury be funny if someone called the county mental health centre on this guy tvoj that's it for harlan? tvoj er harlon. malaclyps quinn asked what about people who can't afford stuff that's under copyright dnm malaclyps/quinnums: What was the reaction/fallout from Ellison calling Templeton a motherfucker anyway? malaclyps moderator has rewritten the question again dnm And will someone fucking gag this Stalinist moderating bitch?! malaclyps dnm: everyone worked really hard to calm them down malaclyps dnm: i'm probably being a bit hard on him silentfury really? malaclyps dnm: he's got a scary job * silentfury would like to see Brad kick his ass. dnm malaclyps: True. silentfury how can you re-write the question if your asking out loud silentfury ... dnm malaclyps: Did anyone talk about the Creative Commons effort? dnm silentfury: Moderator can re-phrase. malaclyps dnm: cory mentioned the creative commons earlier silentfury but ellison hears the question doesn't he dnm silentfury: I don't know. The moderator may get a question from the audience and then ask it into the mic edited. dnm silentfury: i.e., questioner does not speak directly into mic. * dnm shrugs silentfury that's a pretty in-efficient way of doing things.. at the copyright conference I was at they just took down our table number and let us ask the questions from the mic we had at the table. dnm silentfury: It's inefficient if you want to ask questions. It's efficient if you want to control ruckus and lame questions deisgned to troll. silentfury true. dnm quinnums's question is important, I wish someone had actually asked it verbatim and gotten an intelligent answer. dnm I suppose Ellison, being the age he is, is all about Capitalism Now malaclyps basically the last five minutes has been quinn trying to ask her question again, and have it elided over dnm But that's perhaps a bit hasty of me. tvoj dnm: which question? AaronSw (~Snak@188.8.131.52) has joined #infoanarchy dnm tvoj: What about people who can't afford works under coypright AaronSw did somebody say copyright panel? malaclyps hehe tvoj dnm: oh yeah malaclyps question to audience: how many have infringed copyright (lots), how many felt bad about it (not many), how many did when they were ignorant and now won't do it again (a few) wmf hey AaronSw, you're in the right channel malaclyps harlon is still after citizen 513 dnm malaclyps: That pre-supposes a working knowledge of all of copyright law everywhere. The logic is faulty. Ellison has surely jay-walked in his lifetime without feeling guilty about it. silentfury how many people think harlon ellison is a total lunatic who doesn't deserve to be human * silentfury sees everyones hand up dnm silentfury: You're ad hominem-ing malaclyps harlon offers five grand for citizen 513 leading to his arrest and condition dnm "I am Citizen 513" a la Sparticus. Loki I am TK-421! silentfury I am Darth Vader * dnm makes t-shirts on CafePress reading "I am Citizen 513" --- No ping reply for 91 seconds, disconnecting. --- Disconnected (). ING AT Sat May 25 21:19:43 2002 quinnums is anyone blogging the 5k reward? must happen... quickly... :) quinnums can't get to my damn server... argh! <-- malaclyps has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) ntkboy oh, btw, harlon says you're all "very funny" for the Spartacus joke and that he'll talk to you after puberty Loki Puberty scares me. I don't plan on doing it. Ever. dnm http://www.cafepress.com/citizen513 <-- dri has quit () Loki So, it's Ellison's joke about "any random citizen" ? silentfury anyway it's been fun silentfury i'm hittin the sack dnm It's time like this I wish I had Photoshop. dnm Microsoft Photo Editor wont let me insert text. dnm But I do have Paint. malaclyps phew! malaclyps okay, fights over... malaclyps he's just exchanged cards with the ISP guy dnm Why are all my generic close dialog warnings in German now? I blame Qpad. malaclyps he says he's going to sue those motherfuckers as soon as his "hellhounds" see anything infringing on their site malaclyps i don't know, i think the most interesting bit about this was the audience dnm I really don't like it when my PowerBook randomly decides not to power on. malaclyps who were admitted infringers, but pro-authors - harlon got applause and booed malaclyps in equal measures, i think dnm Hrm. dnm Ejecting the battery allows me to turn it on. Strange. Loki odd dnm This is the second time it's done this. burtonator (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #infoanarchy dnm The battery is only holding an hours worth of charge too, but this was in sleep mode and on mains. dnm And when I go to turn it on, it's _off_, but the battery is fully charged and it's still on mains. jkl (~email@example.com) has left #INFOANARCHY dnm Only ejecting the battery and then pressing power on gives me any joy. dnm malaclyps: Weird. What's the mood like now? Loki What a lonely life. * dnm heads straight back to #bbokwarez dnm err, s/bbokwarez/bookwarez/ dnm I don't like this repetitve churning disk noise on boot up. malaclyps dnm: just talked to the moderator ... he was saying that harlon is a smart guy, but just doesn't understand the tech malaclyps well, du --- du/duh :Unknown command malaclyps is someone going to blog the $5 for citizen 513? dnm malaclyps: Apparently. malaclyps i think jerrypournelle has already publicised the case dnm malaclyps: I would, but no one reads my blog for that kind of thing. malaclyps i was going to do a story about citizen 513 in NTK about a year ago, but we couldn't see the news angle - they've been going after that guy for years dnm I'm still trying to make an image of text so I can make Citizen 513 shirts malaclyps hehe --- tvoj is now known as tvoj_ malaclyps okay, i'm going to go hang out with the klingons and the girls dressed in anime schoolgirl costumes dnm I wonder if I can do this in Quark. drue (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined #infoanarchy tvoj (~levine@shell2.BAYAREA.NET) has joined #infoanarchy dnm Later malaclyps, thanks again! malaclyps s'fun! tvoj later malaclyps Loki I wish I could find girls dressed in anime schoolgirl costumes *without* the klingons.